Round 1: N is for Nobody nominating Duck Tales...

[Kong Wen]

I actually liked Chrono Cross. The story was whack, and people were really clamoring for a proper direct Chrono Trigger sequel, which this didn't deliver in a satisfying way. And the combat & leveling systems were kind of weird. Then there was the huge collection of strange party members.

You just listed all the reasons why I thought Chrono Cross was total shit. Maybe I should put that on my Worst Game Ever troll list.

Yes, I was listing all of the things about Chrono Cross that I like the game in spite of. Almost talked myself out of it.

Could have also been spurned on by the long string of mediocrity Square was dumping out at the time. Can't say I played it, since I despise Trigger, but I'm sure there are a number of things factoring in to this both past and present. 94 Metascore is insanely high.

Examples? Chrono Cross came out in the ~2-odd year post-FFVII PS1 heyday.

Final Fantasy VII, Bushido Blade, Final Fantasy Tactics, SaGa Frontier, Einhander, Xenogears, Bushido Blade 2, Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy Collection & Anthologies, SaGa Frontier 2, Legend of Mana, Front Mission 3, Chrono Cross, Parasite Eve 2, Vagrant Story

Some of those were duds, but you're misremembering severely if you want to characterize that as a long string of mediocrity. They didn't really start their decline and creative bankruptcy until they closed out the successful PS1 era and nosedived into a Spirits Within flop.

[VictorViper]

That's a different, terrible era for the company. There's no doubt they had some nice stuff at the time, but close to half of the games on that list were mediocre at best. More than half if you count my opinion.

I mean, you put the SaGa Frontier games in there. Yikes!

Bushido Blade - lukewarm reception, though I adored this game
SaGa Frontier - panned
Bushido Blade 2 - panned
Parasite Eve - lukewarm
Final Fantasy Collection & Anthologies - I don't count these as they were remakes/ports from the glory days
SaGa Frontier 2 - panned
Legend of Mana - lukewarm to panned
Chrono Cross - lukewarm to panned
Parasite Eve 2 - poor memory for this one but I feel like it scored around the same as it's predecessor
Vagrant Story - lukewarm to panned

The games at that time certainly represented a decently creative period for the company, but they had a lot of duds (critically).

[TheGreatNads]

I mean, you put the Xenogears games in there. Yikes!

+1

[Kong Wen]

That's a different, terrible era for the company. There's no doubt they had some nice stuff at the time, but close to half of the games on that list were mediocre at best. More than half if you count my opinion.

If you're going to dismiss "rose-coloured" reviews as evidence, then your point is that you rosily remember it "taking a beating" from someone other than reviewers (I guess your circle of friends?), and that you didn't personally like Square's games at the time.

Square was riding high when Chrono Cross was released, and the game did well. It reviewed well, and pushed 1.5 million units. The main complaint the majority of people had about it was that it was vague and not similar enough to Chrono Trigger, which is what everyone wanted (most of the fans' efforts were directed to trying to find some link between Magus and Guile, Frog and Glenn, etc. in a desperate attempt to establish it as a close direct sequel).

Say what you will about SaGa Frontier and Xenogears (I'll start: I think they're both shit), they each cracked a million sales, and Xenogears was met with almost universal acclaim.

To take this all back to where it started—Pluvius's Worst Game Ever troll list. To say that its inclusion would be "very specific" or that the game "isn't exactly highly regarded" is a stretch. That said, interest in the game has waned enough with the passing of time (it doesn't seem to have the long tail of a retro cult classic) that it might not be as trolly a troll as he hopes, but he has some other relatively niche titles on his list as well.

[VictorViper]

Nothing rose-tinted in my list, I bought every game in your list save for Frontier 2. I'm suggesting that retrospective reviews don't match up with reviews on release. And I'm not talking among friends, I mean among several print publications. At no point did I suggest sales were poor, and as mentioned I snapped up just about everything Square put out around that time - I was a fanboy in a big way. But creativity and variety doesn't erase the fact that most of those games were flawed, some of them severely so, and the critics at that time were pretty hard on them and there were a few 5\10 scores and a bunch of 6-7/10's as well.

[Jordan]

I actually liked Chrono Cross. The story was whack, and people were really clamoring for a proper direct Chrono Trigger sequel, which this didn't deliver in a satisfying way. And the combat & leveling systems were kind of weird. Then there was the huge collection of strange party members.

You just listed all the reasons why I thought Chrono Cross was total shit. Maybe I should put that on my Worst Game Ever troll list.

Rob

Chrono Cross had a lot of problems, and if I'm being perfectly honest, the story really did become complete garbage at a certain point. It was all over the place and retarded, especially during the second disc.

However, I feel like it did a good job on many other things. I actually liked the combat and leveling systems because the way it worked is that there was a cap on grinding each individual character which went up every time you defeated a boss. That made it so that you had to use strategy to beat bosses rather than just going in with overpowered characters. With that having been said, however, the game still rewarded you for spending a little bit of time with each individual character fighting random battles as you could still gain a few extra stat points by doing so. I also liked the element and field system. I've played games which did this much better than Chrono Cross, but Chrono Cross still felt like it was innovative for its time.

Aside from that, I also liked the goofy characters and the replayability of the game. The OST was also phenomenal in my opinion, and the story did have its moments even though it became really contrived once it tried to tie itself into Trigger.

Although I think it's a decent game. Unlike Chrono Trigger.

How can you not like Trigger, man? That game was amazing.

I regret not nominating Valkyrie Profile or VP2, though.

[Kong Wen]

Nothing rose-tinted in my list, I bought every game in your list save for Frontier 2. I'm suggesting that retrospective reviews don't match up with reviews on release. And I'm not talking among friends, I mean among several print publications. At no point did I suggest sales were poor, and as mentioned I snapped up just about everything Square put out around that time - I was a fanboy in a big way. But creativity and variety doesn't erase the fact that most of those games were flawed, some of them severely so, and the critics at that time were pretty hard on them and there were a few 5\10 scores and a bunch of 6-7/10's as well.

... Many of the reviews on Metacritic are contemporaneous reviews! EGM gave it 9s and up across the board in 2000. IGN gave it 9.7 in 2000. Gamespot gave it a 10/10 in 2000. Whatever that PS mag was called that I used to buy at Shoppers gave it a 5/5 on release (can't find an online copy).

No one's saying that none of Square's PS1 games were without flaws. What someone is saying is that there's so far no sufficient evidence that Chrono Cross took a critical beating on release or that it wasn't highly regarded beyond a completely normal measure of difference of opinion.

[TheGreatNads]

How can you not like Trigger, man? That game was amazing.

I hate it. Take everything you love about the game, and just imagine the opposite of all those views. That's my view on Chrono Trigger.

[Jordan]

How can you not like Trigger, man? That game was amazing.

I hate it. Take everything you love about the game, and just imagine the opposite of all those views. That's my view on Chrono Trigger.

Alright, start with an example or something. I'm not going to attack you, but I'm just curious what's so bad about it. One of the things I loved about Chrono Trigger was the time traveling and the way you could get alternate endings by defeating the final boss in new game+ at an earlier point, resulting in some hilarious endings. I also liked most of the characters.*

*-Robo was kind of boring and Chrono is a silent protagonist, which is whatever. The rest are great though.

[VictorViper]

/*%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*/smarty; if (!is_callable('smarty_insert_meta')) include '/var/www/metacritic/lib/Metacritic/Display/Plugins/insert.meta.php'; if (!is_callable('smarty_insert_page_nav')) include '/var/www/metacritic/lib/Metacritic/Display/Plugins/insert.page_nav.php'; if (!is_callable('smarty_insert_css')) include '/var/www/metacritic/lib/Metacritic/Display/Plugins/insert.css.php'; if (!is_callable('smarty_insert_ad')) include '/var/www/metacritic/lib/Metacritic/Display/Plugins/insert.ad.php'; ?>/*/%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*/ /*%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*//*/%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*/ /*%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*//*/%%SmartyNocache:105063567755f75d2d03fb66-26076696%%*/

This is what metacritic gives me for chrono cross, for some reason. But I'll say among those you referenced, they are some of the worst hype-peddling offenders. From memory, it averaged 7 among the mags I read. Although it probably was the best received among the games I took from your list. Can't find a lick of evidence, unfortunately. I recall PSM being particularly harsh on Square during that era.