Game of Thrones (contains serious, massive SPOILERS)

[The Shoemaker]

Something's odd about my above post, don't know what happened...

Spoiler

"House Martell: This is a tricky one, if they appear at all I bet they will turn up in Dany's gallery of assorted villains. Her crew isn't really one for the best first impressions back in Westeros anyway. Slavers, patricidal kingslayers, treacherous pirates, barbarian hordes, monsterous dragons, eunuchs spymasters and armies.

Since Varys wasn't needed to assassinate anyone, this was a fitting appearance (though he is certainly fleet footed to make it back in time for the group shot on the boat). Dany's villain gallery grows and Olenna Tyrell may be the most 'honorable' of them all "


It's actually really interesting that Ollena is there considering how much the Martells and the Tyrells hate eachother. Though there's no Willas in the show so maybe they're cool. That was a real butchering of "Fire and Blood", but I thought the scene worked.

[Kiwi the Tortoise]

Edited your post below a bit to get the format in order and spoiler tags.

[Kiwi the Tortoise]

Spoiler

Did you noticed how dark and foreboding the throne room during the crowning scene was btw.
Looks like it took place late at night, but just see how the room appears in previous seasons and compare it to this scene.

My association:

[The Shoemaker]

Edited your post below a bit to get the format in order and spoiler tags.

Thanks!

Spoiler

Did you noticed how dark and foreboding the throne room during the crowning scene was btw.
Looks like it took place late at night, but just see how the room appears in previous seasons and compare it to this scene.

My association:

Spoiler

Definitely, very dark. I think it was definitely to show that this isn't a good thing, especially with that look Jaime gave Cersei, this might be the turning point for him (weee!)

Surely someone will make a fuss about how there is no royal family now and that a mother doesn't inherit after a son, and how many rules it breaks to destroy the sept and the High Septon (though I'm sure Cersei would just send Ser after them)

But really though, kings landing was boring all season, but they did such a good job with the sequences in this episode. All it takes is some good shots and nice music to turn it around.

Poor Unella though, she was just doing the High Septon's biddings (though they did make it seem like she had it out for Cersei)

[Kong Wen]

Great episode! Pretty on par with the last one. 10 edges 9 in that it progressed a lot of stories in interesting ways. It was shot well, but it didn't have the daring Emmy-worthy set-pieces of the last one. Definitely a solid way to close out the best overall season of the show since Season 1.

Just responses for now, since you've been chatterboxes in the time it took me to watch the episode.

Twins:

Spoiler

"It's too bad she stole Frey Pies from Manderly though It was a bit sudden - not a whole lot of build up (Arya leaving Braavos, deciding she would go to Frey first, traveling across half of Westeros), but worked as much as it could have." — Arya's whole story for the past two seasons has been build up to getting revenge on list-denizens. Frey was the easiest target. Now she can hitch a ride to King's Landing with Jaime's crew to get started on Cersei (who I don't believe she'll kill), Gregor (who I don't believe she'll kill), Ilyn Payne (...), etc. unless she runs into the Brotherhood and/or Melisandre first.

Manderly has been in the show for one short scene, so it would have been bad writing for them to steal the pie scene from Arya.

Brienne (& Jaime tangent):

Spoiler

"I guess they just wanted her and Jaime to meet up, might have been more interesting to see her fighting in the Bastard Bowl." — I don't think that would have been more interesting. It wouldn't really move her forward, anyway. We already know from her win over Sandor that she's a beast. Her scenes with Jaime were great, and very important to his arc if not to her own. The show's actually doing Jaime really well, with a nice slow-burn on his inner conflict between idealized love and the sacrifices of honour. While I wasn't sold on them at the time, I actually think his mission to Dorne and puppy-eyed return to Cersei earlier were necessary to set up this most recent mission to Riverrun and more cynical, self-doubting return to Cersei. I guess we'll have to see how that last uneasy stare at the end plays out, but I think Jaime's rolling.

Brienne'll be back in the North soon enough, if she doesn't get side-tracked by the Brotherhood (which I think is much more likely, and we know Sandor's not her biggest fan).

Bran:

Spoiler

"Seemed a bit more like Coldhands (even though book Coldhands is not Benjen)." — Yes he is.

Euron:

Spoiler

"Was kind of surprised about this. Maybe the show won't be building up Euron as a super villian" — Euron is still a very minor character. It would make no sense wasting time in a wrap-up episode on him. He'll have a bigger role to play in the next season.

King's Landing:

Spoiler

"Surely someone will make a fuss about how there is no royal family now and that a mother doesn't inherit after a son, and how many rules it breaks to destroy the sept and the High Septon (though I'm sure Cersei would just send Ser after them)" — People don't know it was Cersei who blew up the Sept. I mean, I'm sure they "know" but they don't know. And rebelling against Aerys broke a lot of rules, too. Rules are artificial. The show has been teaching us that since season 1. Blind adherence to the idea of rules will get you killed. Of course, breaking the wrong rule at the wrong time will get you killed, too.

Functionally, Cersei has taken the throne by right of conquest rather than right of inheritance. (That's what's up with her suit of armour.) She has as much a claim to the throne as any pretender or usurper or conqueror (including the original Aegon). This goes back to the rules thing, and Cersei's "power is power" philosophy. Who has a "legitimate claim" to the throne is arbitrary. It's a game. It's not what's important. Jon knows what's really important: he's seen it in action. This is why I get a kick out of all the raving fanboys who somehow think Jon is going to claim/inherit the Iron Throne somehow. They're missing the point. That's like getting all the way to the end of Lord of the Rings and saying "Gandalf should just wear the Ring to fight Sauron!"

General:

Spoiler

"Teleporting was off the charts today, like super off the charts. Varys is a wizard, so is Arya, so is Jaime." — I always get a chuckle when people say stuff like this. There was no teleporting. Do you really want to watch a 2-month-long episode of Arya sailing and riding to the Twins in real time? Each event that takes place in each episode isn't happening at the same time. Varys has a shitload of time to get to Dorne and then sail back to Mereen while/after all that other stuff was happening. I'm glad the showrunners don't insult their viewers' intelligence by feeling the need to drop micro-scenes keeping track of people's movements, "3 weeks later" subtitles, etc.

This isn't perfect (I don't agree with a lot of the plotted points), but it's a good example of how the lines fold together: https://i.imgur.com/gl8troZ.png

[The Shoemaker]

Twins:

Spoiler

Manderly has been in the show for one short scene, so it would have been bad writing for them to steal the pie scene from Arya.

Spoiler

Of course not, I'm saying it would have been better the way the book was written. Would have been too random for this Manderly to do it. It's a throw away piece anyways. I just like the significance Frey Pies holds in the book over what it meant for Arya.

Brienne (& Jaime tangent):

Spoiler

Yeah, I was a little mixed on Jaime and Brienne's interactions. The 'maybe" part was me debating if the single conversation with Jaime was worth missing the battle. Either way, Brienne has had a pretty tame arc for the last two seasons.

Bran:

Spoiler

"Seemed a bit more like Coldhands (even though book Coldhands is not Benjen)." — Yes he is.

Spoiler

GRRM said Benjen is not coldhands. Whoever Coldhands is died "long ago" the children of the forest say, and they are pretty old.

Euron:

Spoiler

"Was kind of surprised about this. Maybe the show won't be building up Euron as a super villian" — Euron is still a very minor character. It would make no sense wasting time in a wrap-up episode on him. He'll have a bigger role to play in the next season.

Spoiler

All I'm saying here is I'm surprised there was no final shot of him to hype up what he'll be doing next season

King's Landing:

Spoiler

Functionally, Cersei has taken the throne by right of conquest rather than right of inheritance.

Spoiler

Yeah totally (not sure if I mentioned this but that outfit really reminded me of Tywin). And rightfully so we should see some noble lords making a fuss about this :p At the very least we're already seeing Olenna, not sure if Sansa and Jon will get involved, but maybe considering the White Walkers haven't hit yet. I would expect Randyll Tarly to be in a huff, couple riots in the streets.

General:

Spoiler

"Teleporting was off the charts today, like super off the charts. Varys is a wizard, so is Arya, so is Jaime." — I always get a chuckle when people say stuff like this. There was no teleporting. Do you really want to watch a 2-month-long episode of Arya sailing and riding to the Twins in real time? Each event that takes place in each episode isn't happening at the same time. Varys has a shitload of time to get to Dorne and then sail back to Mereen while/after all that other stuff was happening. I'm glad the showrunners don't insult their viewers' intelligence by feeling the need to drop micro-scenes keeping track of people's movements, "3 weeks later" subtitles, etc.

This isn't perfect (I don't agree with a lot of the plotted points), but it's a good example of how the lines fold together: https://i.imgur.com/gl8troZ.png

Spoiler

Well, I think I can chuckle at the speed of the plot and still agree that it's better this way I never said I thought this was the wrong way to do it, obviously to do the scenes they wanted to do they had to make everything align at once, which is fine. It made for a good episode, doesn't mean I can't poke fun at it!

[Kong Wen]

Responses to Shoe:

Oldtown Library:

Spoiler

"GRRM said Benjen is not coldhands. Whoever Coldhands is died 'long ago' the children of the forest say, and they are pretty old." — Have a source/interview for GRRM saying that? All I've seen is his editorial note in the MS draft, which is a red herring, but I'd happily adapt my position if he's explicitly clarified. There's not enough evidence in the books themselves (yet) to be able to say "Benjen is [or is not] Coldhands"

Iron Islands:

Spoiler

"All I'm saying here is I'm surprised there was no final shot of him to hype up what he'll be doing next season" — All I'm saying is I'm not. I'll say one thing, though: they better make really good use of the coming months in trying to somehow develop him into a compelling villain. Because so far, there's not enough material in the books or the show to make me care about him. With so little time left, they need to get down to brass tacks and start focusing on the characters that matter. I'd put Littlefinger higher on the villain ladder than Euron.

King's Landing and surrounding areas:

Spoiler

"And rightfully so we should see some noble lords making a fuss about this :p At the very least we're already seeing Olenna, not sure if Sansa and Jon will get involved, but maybe considering the White Walkers haven't hit yet. I would expect Randyll Tarly to be in a huff, couple riots in the streets." — If the Tyrells have declared for Dany, then Randyll Tarly will almost certainly have done so as well. Especially since he led the van against Robert during the Usurper's War. With the Tyrells decimated, Tarly could very well become the Lord Paramount of the Reach. There aren't really any strong great houses left to make a fuss about it. That's the whole point: Cersei has squashed 'em. The Reach & Dorne already want her dead, so they're galvanized against her. Jon & Sansa probably won't give a shit other than not wanting to submit to her (if she bothers to ask). I expect we'll see some drama between Littlefinger and Cersei, though, when she calls in her Sansa-on-a-spike favour. Of course, we have to ask... what's the appeal of ruling if all you have to rule is a pile of rubble populated by people who silently hate you? Cersei's being set up on that throne as a paper queen waiting to be toppled (hence, in part, the parallels with Aerys).

[The Shoemaker]

Responses to Shoe:

Oldtown Library:

Spoiler

"GRRM said Benjen is not coldhands. Whoever Coldhands is died 'long ago' the children of the forest say, and they are pretty old." — Have a source/interview for GRRM saying that? All I've seen is his editorial note in the MS draft, which is a red herring, but I'd happily adapt my position if he's explicitly clarified. There's not enough evidence in the books themselves (yet) to be able to say "Benjen is [or is not] Coldhands"

Spoiler

All I'm going off of is the ASOS manuscript where the editor asked GRRM if Coldhands is Benjen and he wrote back "NO!" As well as the children saying Coldhands died long ago. You would also think Benjen would identify himself to Bran, or Bran would feel like he happens to know who Coldhands is. Like, it's not 100% (GRRM could have been lying or something else), but either way I'm okay with the show using Benjen for that role.

Iron Islands:

Spoiler

"All I'm saying here is I'm surprised there was no final shot of him to hype up what he'll be doing next season" — All I'm saying is I'm not. I'll say one thing, though: they better make really good use of the coming months in trying to somehow develop him into a compelling villain. Because so far, there's not enough material in the books or the show to make me care about him. With so little time left, they need to get down to brass tacks and start focusing on the characters that matter. I'd put Littlefinger higher on the villain ladder than Euron.

Spoiler

Have you read The Forsaken chapter from TWOW GRRM released a couple weeks ago? That chapter builds up Euron A LOT. Been meaning to discuss that chapter, not sure if anyone here reads TWOW sample chapters though.

King's Landing and surrounding areas:

Spoiler

"And rightfully so we should see some noble lords making a fuss about this :p At the very least we're already seeing Olenna, not sure if Sansa and Jon will get involved, but maybe considering the White Walkers haven't hit yet. I would expect Randyll Tarly to be in a huff, couple riots in the streets." — If the Tyrells have declared for Dany, then Randyll Tarly will almost certainly have done so as well. Especially since he led the van against Robert during the Usurper's War. With the Tyrells decimated, Tarly could very well become the Lord Paramount of the Reach. There aren't really any strong great houses left to make a fuss about it. That's the whole point: Cersei has squashed 'em. The Reach & Dorne already want her dead, so they're galvanized against her. Jon & Sansa probably won't give a shit other than not wanting to submit to her (if she bothers to ask). I expect we'll see some drama between Littlefinger and Cersei, though, when she calls in her Sansa-on-a-spike favour. Of course, we have to ask... what's the appeal of ruling if all you have to rule is a pile of rubble populated by people who silently hate you? Cersei's being set up on that throne as a paper queen waiting to be toppled (hence, in part, the parallels with Aerys).

Spoiler

Yeah, like this is Red Wedding level of evil here. Blowing up the Great Sept and all of those innocents, as well as the Queen, and what the public will precieve as the King as well. This is setting up another Robert's Rebellion if it wasn't for Daenerys storming in (My guess is it will be Griff in the books).

[Kreegs]

Spoiler

Wow. Just finished the last 2 episodes last night. Both were some of the best I have seen in terms of plot progression and cinematography.

I'm glad as hell that Ramsey died, and had been believing Jon to be a Targarean for some time now.

This sets up a pretty epic next season. Will it be the last one?

[Kong Wen]

This sets up a pretty epic next season. Will it be the last one?

I believe their plan is to do two more short seasons. Next season will have 7 episodes, and the final season may have 6. Next season is also delayed, so it won't be debuting in April 2017. They said the reason they wanted to delay shooting was so they could have some greyer, wintery weather at their usual shooting locations (since winter has arrived and all).