This Old Neon Forum

Kong Wen wrote: ↑02 May 2019 15:50 Just FYI, if we do have another BGE, the top seed in the nomination round is getting a bye into the final 4.

Alright boys and girls time to all just nominate Hello Kitty Island Adventures. Make Butters proud.

BTW had the person who just voted TF2 didn't vote for it would it have held the top spot still? I heard it was a lot like Overwatch but I feel this forum enjoyed it much more than OW.

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 01:18

Ouenben wrote: ↑01 May 2019 22:35

Slurmee wrote: ↑01 May 2019 01:07

This is what I feared. Some real gems have been knocked out and seeding has given cod4 a top 32 spot.

.

It's still not a top 32 game and not better than the likes of Wind Waker, Oots and many other knocked out games.

No game deserves an instant spot in the top 32 or 16. It also makes the results look weird.

Not a top 32 game and not better than knocked out games according to who ? You?

I could just as easily say Windaker shouldn't be in the top 32. It's not better than the current choice of games.
- Far too easy / lackluster difficulty. Completed it without a single death.
- Lots of downtime just endlessly sailing to get places, I was able to go make and consume a cup of tea while waiting to get somewhere
- Clearly missing content which was cut and replaced with a very tedious and boring triforce hunt mission to pad the game out. Just a glorified fetch mission which puts me off whenever I've tried replaying this game
-No real gameplay innovation or progression from previous Zelda titles, beyond the new parry button which basically dumbs down the combat and makes it even easier.
-

Despite all this I really enjoyed it and adore the art style and soundtrack but there are many many superior games out there, it's not even top tier in its own franchise

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 1 of 4 - Northeastern Qualifiers
Batman: Arkham Asylum (2009, Multiplatform)
Final Fantasy IV (1991, SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics (1997, PS1)
Final Fantasy VI (1994, SNES)
Final Fantasy X (2001, PS2)
Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition (2014, Multiplatform)
Portal (2007, Multiplatform)
Portal 2 (2011, Multiplatform)

Final Fantasy Tactics is one of my top games of all time. Portal is up there too—not as close to the top, but high enough to get a vote in this batch, and it's a better game than its own sequel. Batman: Arkham Asylum is the best metrovania on this list. Guacamelee! would be a very close second, but since I can only choose three games here, it's unfortunately getting edged out.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 2 of 4 - Northwestern Qualifiers
Bloodborne (2015, PS4)
Cave Story (2004, PC)
Chrono Trigger (1995, SNES)
Metal Gear Solid (1998, PS1)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater / Subsistence (2004, PS2)
Spelunky (2012, Multiplatform)
Super Meat Boy (2010, Multiplatform)
Tetris (1989, GB)

Chrono Trigger is a great, timeless (lol) RPG. Super Meat Boy is a perfect twitch platformer. Tetris is a perfect overall game, period. That leaves Bloodborne and Spelunky in the lurch. Bloodborne is a good spiritual successor to the Souls games, but I had some issues with the pacing and the fact that the equipment was mainly for looks. Spelunky is a masterpiece, it's just not my genre.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 3 of 4 - Southeastern Qualifiers
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (2007, Multiplatform)
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997, PS1)
Mega Man 9 (2008, Multiplatform)
Super Mario 64 (1996, N64)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (1988, NES)
Super Mario Galaxy 2 (2010, Wii)
Super Mario World (1990, SNES)
Undertale (2015, Multiplatform)

Symphony of the Night always ends up high in these competitions for a reason: it's a solid, meaty game. Lots of meaningful variety and good gameplay. Mega Man 9 is the best classic MM game. I think I'll give my third vote to CoD4 for paving the way for the kinds of FPS games I could actually end up enjoying.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 4 of 4 - Southwestern Qualifiers
Celeste (2018, Multiplatform)
Dark Souls (2011, Multiplatform)
Galaga (1981, Arcade)
StarCraft (1998, PC)
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (1991, Arcade)
Super Metroid (1994, SNES)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (1991, SNES)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017, NS)

Only Dark Souls. Most of the other games in this bracket are really strong, so with that kind of consistent quality across the board I have to focus on the one that rises to the top, and that's Dark Souls. Breath of the Wild is a pretty good game within a particular series, but it wouldn't be what it was without Dark Souls.

Kong Wen wrote: ↑02 May 2019 18:32 Only Dark Souls. Most of the other games in this bracket are really strong, so with that kind of consistent quality across the board I have to focus on the one that rises to the top, and that's Dark Souls. Breath of the Wild is a pretty good game within a particular series, but it wouldn't be what it was without Dark Souls.

What does BOTW take from Dark Souls they seem like 2 very different games/genres.

Ouenben wrote: ↑02 May 2019 17:39

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 01:18

Ouenben wrote: ↑01 May 2019 22:35
.

It's still not a top 32 game and not better than the likes of Wind Waker, Oots and many other knocked out games.

No game deserves an instant spot in the top 32 or 16. It also makes the results look weird.

Not a top 32 game and not better than knocked out games according to who ? You?

I could just as easily say Windaker shouldn't be in the top 32. It's not better than the current choice of games.
- Far too easy / lackluster difficulty. Completed it without a single death.
- Lots of downtime just endlessly sailing to get places, I was able to go make and consume a cup of tea while waiting to get somewhere
- Clearly missing content which was cut and replaced with a very tedious and boring triforce hunt mission to pad the game out. Just a glorified fetch mission which puts me off whenever I've tried replaying this game
-No real gameplay innovation or progression from previous Zelda titles, beyond the new parry button which basically dumbs down the combat and makes it even easier.
-

Despite all this I really enjoyed it and adore the art style and soundtrack but there are many many superior games out there, it's not even top tier in its own franchise

Not an instant top 32.

Wind Waker finished 10th and 15th in the last 2 tournaments so its not like we're talking about some shit game every game has its flaws and bar Tetris I could list flaws for all these games and Cod4 hasn't made the top 32 ever and currently is looking likely to be knocked out this round. The voting is clearly showing it either has reached it peak or didn't deserve a top 32 spot. The only reason wind waker didn't make it through was because people were sick of nintendo/series titles doing so well that they put a handicap on big game series to thin out the zelda, Mario, final Fantasy etc for a different result. But to really drive home my issue Cod4 and any game should have to earn a top 32 spot from votes not from nominations.

Im also not saying Cod4 is a bad game.

Also the sailing in wind waker is some of the best parts of the game the whole ocean is so fun to explore and finding a new island was very exciting and a huge gameplay innovation.

Also not being top tier in its own franchise is arguible/your oponion since its considered one of the best 3d zelda games.

To be mega clear though I'm not saying Cod4 doesn't deserve a top 32 spot I'm saying it should have to earn it like every other title had to. Had I known nominations could score my game a top 32 or 16 spot I would have just nominated my favorite title that isn't popular here for an instant top 16 or 32 spot and that seems really broken.

That being said I'm going to completely drop this now. I never wanted to get into this discussion as it felt very rude to kong but everyone kept pushing it and twisting my words so I had to properly explain myself.

Here's hoping Alttp can represent the zelda series going forward since it's taking a huge cut in games in the last few rounds.

Curious do people start voting against games that have won in previous events or do people not care about that?

Also didn't Metroid Prime win last time was that knocked out earlier?

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:52Wind Waker finished 10th and 15th in the last 2 tournaments so its not like we're talking about some shit game

BGE embraces many different measures for nomination and voting. Someone could nominate and vote for all games that feature the best hairstyles, on only games that feature mermaids, and those would be 100% legit approaches to this tournament.

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:52To be mega clear though I'm not saying Cod4 doesn't deserve a top 32 spot I'm saying it should have to earn it

It did earn it. You might not like that it earned it, but I feel like that's more your misunderstanding of the nature of the BGE than anything else.

This is never going to be anything approaching an objective measure of a game's quality compared to any other games besides the ones they happen to face in each bracket—and that's determined by RNG and formal structure restrictions, and nomination strategy is a part of that.

Similarly, we might have a hard time stomaching the idea that the Dallas Stars this year are a "better team" than the Tampa Bay Lightning, because they never played each other. That's structural. Teams play each other in divisions and conferences, so it's not a measure of every team against every other team. Some teams/games get lucky matchups. That's not "broken" or a flaw. That's an essential part of the fun of the event.

If you don't find that particular element fun, then cast your votes or talk about your favourite games or focus on whatever part you do find fun, but don't spoil it for everyone else.

I'm not saying this because I feel like it's rude to me personally, or because I'm offended on behalf of the tournament design—the tournament design is perfect. I'm saying this because it's... boring. It would be more interesting if you levelled specific complaints against COD4—explain why it doesn't fit your personal criteria for BGE, because that reveals what you do value in a game—rather than complaining about the structure that brought it there. That is, why wouldn't you vote for it, not why other people shouldn't vote for it.

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:52Curious do people start voting against games that have won in previous events or do people not care about that?

Not me. I vote for the games I like most in each bracket. I voted for Chrono Trigger, and it has won before.

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:52 Also didn't Metroid Prime win last time was that knocked out earlier?

Super Mario Bros. 3 won last time. Before that was Chrono Trigger. Before that was Super Metroid.

Metroid Prime ranked 51st, 7th, and 8th. It has a nomination-weight bye into the wildcard round.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 1 of 4 - Northeastern Qualifiers
Batman: Arkham Asylum (2009, Multiplatform)
Final Fantasy IV (1991, SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics (1997, PS1)
Final Fantasy VI (1994, SNES)
Final Fantasy X (2001, PS2)
Guacamelee! Super Turbo Championship Edition (2014, Multiplatform)
Portal (2007, Multiplatform)
Portal 2 (2011, Multiplatform)

I've only played FFX in the FF series, so it gets my vote. If I'd played the other entries in here, I may well have voted for them instead! Oh well, that's part of why we redo this thing every few years, yeah?

Guac and Batman are great Metroidvanias, as Kong said. In particular, both had excellent combat that wasn't quite like anything else I'd played (particularly Batman).

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 2 of 4 - Northwestern Qualifiers
Bloodborne (2015, PS4)
Cave Story (2004, PC)
Chrono Trigger (1995, SNES)
Metal Gear Solid (1998, PS1)
Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater / Subsistence (2004, PS2)
Spelunky (2012, Multiplatform)
Super Meat Boy (2010, Multiplatform)
Tetris (1989, GB)

Both MGS games and SMB get my easy votes here. MGS is bonkers fun, and if you want my opinion on Super Meat Boy, just see my TONe review!

Didn't really have to deliberate at all on this one. Tetris is an outstanding game, but in later rounds, I vote based on what the games mean to me personally, not their overall magnitude or w/e.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 3 of 4 - Southeastern Qualifiers
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (2007, Multiplatform)
Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (1997, PS1)
Mega Man 9 (2008, Multiplatform)
Super Mario 64 (1996, N64)
Super Mario Bros. 3 (1988, NES)
Super Mario Galaxy 2 (2010, Wii)
Super Mario World (1990, SNES)
Undertale (2015, Multiplatform)

I (probably) agree with Kong that MM9 is the series's best entry. Any argument contrary would probably rely heavily on nostalgia (although I will say that MM2 and 3 have it beaten in terms of soundtrack). Then Mario's 3rd and 4th offerings are just sublime. I'd say I probably prefer World, but I'm awfully glad they both exist. Just blissful platforming, colorful art, and memorable tunes.

I downloaded CoD4 on PS+ with the intent to see what it was all about (at least story-wise), but I haven't gotten around to it. Doubt I'd have voted for it, but it'd have been nice to have been informed. Ah, well, see my comments under poll 1.

This Old Neon wrote: ↑29 Apr 2019 02:27 Poll 4 of 4 - Southwestern Qualifiers
Celeste (2018, Multiplatform)
Dark Souls (2011, Multiplatform)
Galaga (1981, Arcade)
StarCraft (1998, PC)
Street Fighter II: The World Warrior (1991, Arcade)
Super Metroid (1994, SNES)
The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (1991, SNES)
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild (2017, NS)

Celeste and Galaga were easy. The former is the best game of 2018 and one of the finest platformers ever, and it's got a very charming story with quality representation of struggling with mental health issues. The latter is arcade genius with infinite replayability as far as I'm concerned. BotW was great, but I just barely voted for it. I agree with Kong that it's pretty derivative, but that's not always bad. Most things are. Although I'm not sure I see the connection to Dark Souls...

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:24What does BOTW take from Dark Souls they seem like 2 very different games/genres.

They're the same genre. You should definitely give Dark Souls a try if you're interested in 3D exploration and fantasy combat.

Breath of the Wild reorients The Legend of Zelda's traditional 3D action combat according to the genre's new Dark Souls-situated paradigm. It's not about any specific mechanic that was borrowed, but about the mechanical ethic. Breath of the Wild has a more measured pace to combat design. The disposability of weapons and equipment (and subsequent need to scrounge) is an influence. The way the enemies despawn when they're killed and only occasionally respawn under special circumstances (death, blood moon) is a shift in overall exploration philosophy and approach to encounters. These are just a couple examples.

So it's not that Breath of the Wild is a "let's make a Zelda game like Dark Souls!" game. It's that Breath of the Wild is a "let's make an action/adventure game in a world where Dark Souls dictates the underlying elements of the genre!" game.

Kong Wen wrote: ↑03 May 2019 19:20

Slurmee wrote: ↑02 May 2019 23:24What does BOTW take from Dark Souls they seem like 2 very different games/genres.

They're the same genre. You should definitely give Dark Souls a try if you're interested in 3D exploration and fantasy combat.

Breath of the Wild reorients The Legend of Zelda's traditional 3D action combat according to the genre's new Dark Souls-situated paradigm. It's not about any specific mechanic that was borrowed, but about the mechanical ethic. Breath of the Wild has a more measured pace to combat design. The disposability of weapons and equipment (and subsequent need to scrounge) is an influence. The way the enemies despawn when they're killed and only occasionally respawn under special circumstances (death, blood moon) is a shift in overall exploration philosophy and approach to encounters. These are just a couple examples.

So it's not that Breath of the Wild is a "let's make a Zelda game like Dark Souls!" game. It's that Breath of the Wild is a "let's make an action/adventure game in a world where Dark Souls dictates the underlying elements of the genre!" game.

It is a weird thing where when I play Dark Souls, I'm reminded of Zelda, but when I play Zelda I don't think of Dark Souls. There's definitely something there connecting them. They are on the far ends of the same genre I'd say, with Dark Souls being much more of an RPG.

The Shoemaker wrote: ↑03 May 2019 21:57It is a weird thing where when I play Dark Souls, I'm reminded of Zelda, but when I play Zelda I don't think of Dark Souls. There's definitely something there connecting them.

The direction of this connection is mostly bias (not in a bad way—just personal context). When I play Breath of the Wild (but, significantly, not other 3D Zelda games), all I can think about is Dark Souls. When I play Dark Souls, I don't think of Zelda.