Game of Thrones (contains serious, massive SPOILERS)

[VictorViper]

Spoiler

I'm not bored with Arya because of a little thing a friend and I have going - anyone suspicious of her place in the timeline? For now, I'll say no more...

Plus, fucking DAREDEVIL.

[The Shoemaker]

I just read this article that I think does a good job of representing how I view the show and my issues with it (for the most part). I'll just mention that there's a lot of overlap between this and what I posted, but that I read this after making my post
http://www.fandomfollowing.com/game-of- ... criticism/

Also Vic, you definitely lost me but I'm interested in hearing more!

[VictorViper]

Also Vic, you definitely lost me but I'm interested in hearing more!

Spoiler

Consider for a moment that she may be in the past, with regard to her development. Her character has been largely out of sync with the rest of the show since she sailed off. Consider her training and what that may imply...

[Kong Wen]

OH, Shoe! I spent some time yesterday considering Theon's line that we were both wondering about.

Spoiler

Here's a proposal for you. When he said he's going "home", he didn't mean the Iron Islands, he meant Winterfell. The awakened and contrite Theon realizes his heritage and his debt to the Stark family. He grew up at Winterfell. That's his real home and he realizes that now. He feels guilty about how he treated his family, and he's going to go back there to atone and be punished. The real question is what Ramsay's going to do with him when he gets his hands on him... and whether Theon will be able to keep his spine when that happens.

Such as when the Sand Snakes meet Trystanne on the boat he could have easily said "how did you get here?" and the Snakes could explain before doing what they do. Instead we have no way of knowing how they got there without assuming. For me that's not a neat mystery, that appears more like incontinutity considering we last saw them on shore at Dorne and Trystanne's boat far in the distance.

I'll grant you that the sand snakes/Trystane thing is the best example of this we've seen. Davos and Brienne are bad examples. Davos is too busy, and he's not a young (whiny) man / puppydog servant. It's time to get shit done. That's why I suggested that he may make some mention or gesture of mourning for Stannis later, but now is not the appropriate time. And Brienne does not know the nature of Sansa and the Hound's relationship. You're following the path I'm laying out for you there now. Stannis and Jaime and the candle weren't related to the conversation at hand in the same way that the Hound wasn't. He may have been an important detail for Sansa, and for the readers/viewers who love seeing these little connections made for them, but not for Brienne. That's good writing.

But you are right in that I hold a lot of bias against the writers. This is due to their history of refusing to recognize ciriticisms of the show, common instances (on screen and off) of caring more about shocking moments than character development and logic, and distaste for representing the books.

Eh, I honestly think those three criticisms are a bit overblown (not specifically by you, just in a general sense). To suggest that the showrunners and producers on the show (including George R. R. Martin) don't care about character development and logic is a big stretch. There are shocking moments in the show (climactic moments), but they're in the books, too. It's just that they're padded out by hundreds of pages of pedestrian prose in the books. As for distaste for representing the books... it must relate to nitpicks about changing names or not including every reader's pet side-plot or something, ignoring the forest for trees. The show is a massive, expensive, and ambitious representation of the books. Representing the books is their job. They don't have distaste for it. It's their passion and their life's work.

My intention is without a doubt to come off as a book snob. I also just like to point out what I felt worked, or didn't work, regardless of its importance.

To the first point, that's fine, but many of the changes are improvements to Martin's clunky, pulpy style. Changing a name here and there, not so much, but then that's not enough to make a scene work or not work. It's not like the salt throne scene narratively crumbled or someone slipped out of character because they said "salt throne" instead of "seastone chair". [And actually, it's slightly misleading to talk about "changes"—they're not changing the book, they're translating ideas from the book in different ways.] Being a book snob is all well and good when it's levelled critically and selectively. Level 20 book snob lords get insight into missing backstory and deleted scenes. That's cool. Level 2 book snob squires quibble about what the real name of a sword should be, or whether Nick Fury should be white or black.

My intention here isn't to give you a hard time. I fully understand your point that, all things being equal, why not use a shared word to denote the same concept—a simple way to make book readers happy? For the same reason that I think making book readers unhappy with minutiae is a cheap criticism, it may not be the best approach to designing a narrative.

Heck, thinking about this even more, maybe they focus tested the seastone chair / salt throne thing for all we know. Like we both said, neither had ever been mentioned in the series before. This is a visual medium and we don't have the benefit of exposition (dubious literary quality notwithstanding) to explain what a seastone chair is. If they had simply thrown that line out, people may not have understood what it implied. Out of context, it sounds like it could be an Iron Islands euphemism for a toilet. "Throne" gives us the necessary regal connotations to put the pieces together effortlessly (as well as dovetailing nicely with the "Game of Thrones" motif). It's actually impressive writing to have been able to identify such a small opportunity for improvement.

SPOILER

Spoiler

I don't know Vic, she was pretty in-sync with the timeline when Meryn and Mace visited Braavos. Bringing time into this is a biiiiiiiig stretch for me unless there's some compelling evidence that you're holding out on. Still an interesting and entertaining notion that I'd be happy to continue discussing. Plus, Daredevil!!!

[VictorViper]

Damn. Clearly we forgot about those scenes. Damn damn.

[Kong Wen]

Damn. Clearly we forgot about those scenes. Damn damn.

[Kong Wen]

Oh man, other than being bored by Arya again, this episode.

Spoiler

The worse scene of all was Lord Umber coming to Winterfell with Rickon Stark and the corpse of Shaggydog!!! Nooooo! That's not going to be good.

I also enjoyed the scene with Jaime & Cersei crashing the Small Council meeting. Small Council ain't takin' no shit.

Spoiler

It's interesting that they're not making any bones about Ser Gregor being Ser Gregor. I mean, it's pretty damn obvious in the books too, so at least the show respects the readers enough not to paint every character around him as an idiot for not realizing it.

Poor Tommen looks like he's well on the way to getting brainwashed by an expert manipulator.

I almost forgot about Bran's scene. While it was great to see the action at the Tower and how the fight really went down (and it was great to see what a full-on grade-A badass Ser Dayne was), the really interesting thing was obvious:

Spoiler

Bran thinks Ned could hear him. When pressed, Max's cagiest response was "maybe."

This episode did an excellent job with both Davos and Melisandre. Their questions and reactions both betrayed the best elements of their characters: Davos's quiet, paternal wisdom and Melisandre's astonishment and curiosity.

Olly.

[The Shoemaker]

OH, Shoe! I spent some time yesterday considering Theon's line that we were both wondering about.

Spoiler

Here's a proposal for you. When he said he's going "home", he didn't mean the Iron Islands, he meant Winterfell. The awakened and contrite Theon realizes his heritage and his debt to the Stark family. He grew up at Winterfell. That's his real home and he realizes that now. He feels guilty about how he treated his family, and he's going to go back there to atone and be punished. The real question is what Ramsay's going to do with him when he gets his hands on him... and whether Theon will be able to keep his spine when that happens.

Just seeing this now, I feel like it could have some merit if I hadn't seen the teaser for next weeks episode in which it shows

Spoiler

Theon at the Iron Islands

You're following the path I'm laying out for you there now. Stannis and Jaime and the candle weren't related to the conversation at hand in the same way that the Hound wasn't. He may have been an important detail for Sansa, and for the readers/viewers who love seeing these little connections made for them, but not for Brienne. That's good writing.

I don't know man, Stannis and Jaime and candle literally weren't a part of the conversation, while the Hound was related to the conversation because he was the "man" Brienne was referring to Interesting that this week Arya's relationship to the Hound gets explored.

(including George R. R. Martin)

This is more speculation at this point, and I'm not bringing this up to make a point on the quality of the show, but I don't think GRRM is all that involved anymore. He hasn't written a script for the show since season 4 and has mentioned that he doesn't have any leverage over the show writters. It's pretty clear this season as well that they aren't using much, if any Winds of Winter dialogue either.

To the first point, that's fine, but many of the changes are improvements to Martin's clunky, pulpy style. Changing a name here and there, not so much, but then that's not enough to make a scene work or not work.

With one last note on the salt throne, I assumed they changed it so that it would be easier to understand. But Yara was just talking about how she was going to be the ruler and then Aeron (?) says that she will not sit the salt throne, there must be a Kingsmoot. Considering ruling was used within the same context of salt throne, I don't think it would be too hard for viewers to piece it together! But as I mentioned before, I did not think that this made the scene fall apart, it was just an adaptational decision I did not like.

As a separate conversation, I would love to hear what changes in the show you thought were improvements over the books!

Oh man, other than being bored by Arya again

Funny you say that, I think Arya was the most interesting plotline for me this time (maybe because we finally saw some change?)

Spoiler

Do we think they are not doing the cat warging stuff?

Overall the episode was fine, best of the 3 so far. I could barely even find anything I felt was illogical!

Tyrion was the low point for me. I think they wanted the scene to be funny, maybe to explore how Missandei and Greyworm grew up in completely different environments from Tyrion, I just found it to be a lot of nothing. Same with the Varys scene. I wasn't really into the Kings Landing stuff either, I'm just waiting for Jaime to

Spoiler

start his riverlands plotline

. The High Sparrow continues to put on a good preformance.

Super spoiler?

Spoiler

Jon's scenes were good, probably the best preformance from Kitt so far. He hung four people (should have lopped their heads off! But technically it's still him "swinging the sword" like Ned said, just more efficient.), but weren't there like at least 8 people who stabbed him? Not calling this a continuity error, just not sure if the rest of them got away or just no one ever identified them as part of it.

[Kong Wen]

Interesting that this week Arya's relationship to the Hound gets explored.

Just setting up the

Spoiler

return of the Hound as not-the-Hound.

As a separate conversation, I would love to hear what changes in the show you thought were improvements over the books!

This would definitely be a separate conversation, because I'm sure it'd cause a stir with book-loyalists, but I can toss out a couple of examples of things I think are improvements in narrative structure quality over the books:

Small one:

Spoiler

Scrapping all the Robert Strong stuff and cutting to the Clegane chase. The only element of this story that I miss is sending his head to Doran.

Medium one:

Spoiler

Jaime's rape of Cersei. Yep, I think this was an improvement for their characters and their relationship.

Big one:

Spoiler

Scrapping the Lady Stoneheart stuff (assuming they keep it scrapped when we go back to the Riverlands—but they should). Structurally, it exists as a prelude to Jon's resurrection, but Beric serves that role just as well, and without as much front-loaded witchcraft and House Stark wish-fulfillment.

The main change from the books that I think has been overall negative has been the Dorne plot, because I think the book version of that had huge potential. It looks like we're also not getting the Griffs, but at this point I kind of hope we're not, because I'm not sure that would work as well with things how they are now, without feeling tacked on.

Funny you say that, I think Arya was the most interesting plotline for me this time (maybe because we finally saw some change?)

Predictable change. She still hasn't done anything. The only interesting part of that scene for me was the waif kind of showing a hint of genuine interest in Arya's list. She mocked her, but she was intrigued by the on-off Hound.

Spoiler

They could still go the cat route now that she's "out of training", but it depends on how much more time they want to sink into her. And narratively speaking, I think Arya's warging (and visions of Nymeria) is at least a hint towards something bigger in her future—and something indelibly Stark. I think that could muddy everyone's tightened role in the story if they introduce that element (can Jon do it? can Sansa?), but again, it'll depend on where they're going with it. Right now, Bran is the magic one, and they might want to keep it that way.

Tyrion was the low point for me.

Agree. Boring and flat. At least with Varys we got to see some of his old scope and reach come through. I think he's a great character and I don't want him to be underutilized just because he's not in King's Landing anymore.

I wasn't really into the Kings Landing stuff either, I'm just waiting for Jaime to spoiler. The High Sparrow continues to put on a good preformance.

Jaime spoiler schmoiler, I'm waiting for Jaime and Zombo hang the High Sparrow and the entire faith militant from the ramparts of the Red Keep.

Not sure about the number of conspirators. Maybe one was already killed by the giant. Maybe they got away. I think it was just Davos and Tormund who arrested the mutineers they knew about (based on who was keeping them holed up / who was sitting at the head table when Thorne was giving his justification). If the others didn't take credit publicly, who would know about them?

Spoiler

Jon would know, but I don't think he was too interested in rooting them out at that point. Four (including their leader) was enough to make an example for the rest, and he was in a hurry to get his cloak off and get out of there anyway. We know from the trailer that there will be a scene at Bear Island. I wonder if Jon's going to be there too (with Longclaw) or just Davos. I'm very interested in seeing how the consolidation of their forces goes.

[The Shoemaker]

Spoiler

Scrapping all the Robert Strong stuff and cutting to the Clegane chase. The only element of this story that I miss is sending his head to Doran.

Spoiler

I can understand this, but as far as I'm aware haven't we only seen one instance of Robert Strong in the books, which consists of a paragraph at the end of Cersei's ADWD chapter? In my mind it's hard to really say what's happening with that character in the books compared to the show.

Spoiler

Jaime's rape of Cersei. Yep, I think this was an improvement for their characters and their relationship.

Spoiler

Wasn't it already rape in the books? I thought the whole point was that we saw how Jaime fantasized about his and Cersei's relationship and when we finally see them together for the first time we see that the relationship is toxic and abusive. I think the show did the same, if not make Cersei more of a victim (is that the part that's better?) It's also interesting that you say that considering the writers have said the scene was meant to be protrayed as consensual.

Spoiler

Scrapping the Lady Stoneheart stuff (assuming they keep it scrapped when we go back to the Riverlands—but they should). Structurally, it exists as a prelude to Jon's resurrection, but Beric serves that role just as well, and without as much front-loaded witchcraft and House Stark wish-fulfillment.

Spoiler

I think it's a little too late for Stoneheart at this point, too many years have past and Jon has already come back. I think she's more important for Brienne's and Jaime's arc than she is for Jon though, but I don't know if I see them going down that path. In terms of Stark wish-fulfillment, I liked how the immediate reaction to seeing her back is a sigh of relief, but as you move into AFFC, you see that she's not the icon for justice you wanted, and ultimately will be someone that needs to be taken down. I don't think that was necessary for the show though. Not sure what you mean by witchcraft though?

I'll address Arya's warging abilities here, after some thought I think it's too late. Stoneheart was another opportunity to show Arya's wolf dreams (as she pulls Cat out of the river), so it's another point towards Stoneheart showing up too late as well. If they wanted to do it they could have showed how Jon and Robb were Wargs as well, so I think the cat thing with Arya would be a bit too out of the blue.

Not sure about the number of conspirators. Maybe one was already killed by the giant. Maybe they got away. I think it was just Davos and Tormund who arrested the mutineers they knew about (based on who was keeping them holed up / who was sitting at the head table when Thorne was giving his justification). If the others didn't take credit publicly, who would know about them?

Yeah that's what I figured.